yes
Helper
Posts: 103
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Post by yes on Feb 12, 2018 1:28:23 GMT
Hi Amenuel,
I wonder what you think of suffering. You've talked about it before, but I'm going to ask about extreme cases. This is one thing that does get to me, as it is still quite confusing and from my eyes looks like a very harsh and cruel environment for some to experience. There are many times throughout history where there have been quite awful things that happen, so I'll name a few:
Unit 731 - A Japanese facility used for torture experimentation
Mexican Cartel video showing someone being brutilised(I'm not linking it)
Shell Shock
Also extreme cases of mental health (personality disorders)
I just can't see how anyone 'deserves' these things that happen to them. Where is the intervention, or help. Even if they were 'bad subjects' before, I can't see why pain like this exists in the first place. For one to create such an environment, what does it say about the one who did, when I 'can' say "what is the point, why create the ability to make these things happen in the first place, where's the morality, empathy". I think you know what I'm trying to get at. When I get ill, I'm like "Why make us get ill in the first place" and you have said (I think) people bring illness' on themselves through indulgence/ not taking care of themselves, but then you have under 5 year olds that get ill by catching it from their parents, or have terminal(or chronicle) illnesses that I don't think have anything to do with them not taking care of themselves. As they're children, for example.
Thanks
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Suffering
Feb 13, 2018 20:53:50 GMT
via mobile
Post by Immanuel on Feb 13, 2018 20:53:50 GMT
Hello and thanks for your contribution,
There are no short or easy answers to address your questions. There are many factors involved making it hard to grasp and it has multiple perspectives.
You will not find a supernatural "Elahem" enjoying and taking pleasure from the atrocities which take place on Earth, but also the same does not harbor emotions and is thus not susceptible to them.
There is no easy way of having an answer ready for why some people are exposed to such events you described, there can be multiple different answers, such as that the people in question belong to those who committed atrocities themselves and caused an equal proportion of mental and physical pain to someone else before, in another life, so this only causes what they did to come around to them in return, called consequence. That only moves your question to the previous occurrence, though.
Or, as humans' bodies are animals by nature and so the cruelty is reflected in that species as well and nature is not particularly kind either. For example, a cat may play with a mouse and thus practically torture it until it dies or wounded escapes.
Honestly I have no absolute answer to how Elahem hold their stance on the "world simulation", but they are very concerned about not biasing the environment and so there is little intervention from their part overall. Quite some people are touched by the fact Elahem does nothing when horrible things happen.
One reason may be that this environment is supposed to break down people and, contrary to what the purpose is, drive people to not believe in a supernatural origin and enter more firmly into their bodily assimilation. If Elahem was more active on Earth, more manifest, this would add bias and that means the consequences of stopping the active will of deluded people to commit atrocities. This world is supposed to run and trick people through its illusion that Elahem do not exist and this world is their real world, and only a very perceptive, logical and sound person may yet truly understand this is not the case, because despite what they see, there is no sound logic behind it, e.g. deep down logic says there has to be a sort of creative force to this universe, it is an inevitable logic and it is deluded to dispute it because it is irrefutable through logic.
One thing is for sure, Elahem is not unfair at all and all that which happens to and around us must have an underlying explanation.
And because this test is supposed to be extremely, extremely intellectually demanding, if you are provoked by these things and it shakes your faith in the supernatural, there is one point why they should make you see such things and through that it is logical, following their agenda.
There is one more thing, it may be that you think you see something horrible but you may not even see something true, because it is staged.
Perhaps it is so dull as that we humans have invented good and evil, and that to Elahem it is irrelevant. Seeing that this extreme testing of ours is not particularly friendly and actually very harsh, and virtually every human goes through a stage in life with severe pain. A woman has tremendous pain giving birth, it is like torture. We get sick from time to time. We get cancer. We are born with heart defects. The Earth is not a kind environment and it is full of afflictions, full of diseases and pain and death. So by that observation, Elahem is not good but more like evil, however what if Elahem is neither but there is no such terminology?
This is also why Elahem do not care too much about whether you are good to people on Earth or not. They are concerned about how much Being you become despite massive stimulus on your developing mind.
Your game is to understand the body is basically outright detrimental for you and do something to develop without it, detached from it, or with remoteness as I have discovered Quran says.
So Elahem are concerned about soundness, integrity and Being, and how much you can withstand without breaking up.
Be well Q. A. A.
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Post by rekkd on Feb 14, 2018 5:30:18 GMT
I believe I developed most during my times of "Suffering"... I start to think about why, what and how instead of being all focused on meaningless things!
I also believe that GOD has no emotions! and we are exactly like animals but with a mind. Animals kill, torture and eat each other, so do we but in different ways. We look at animals and call it nature, but when we humans do it then it's called murder, torture or anything along those lines. Another important point is that it also depend on which side you're on! for example if you're in a war, defending your country, then you would believe that you are doing the right thing .. killing a man, taking him away from his family and children but call it self defense or "for my home country". You believe it no matter what that it's the right thing.
Most people get what they deserve, no one is free of "sin" and physical pain will end eventually when we die. It will be as if it never happened..
God created an evil world that sucks you in, it's so hard to think about reality... I get a headache every time! Then I lose focus and start thinking about my life problems (career, money, women, etc..) and stress over them. Even though I know how stupid and controlling these things are over most men.
It would be truly beautiful to overcome our desires, it's the only freedom.
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yes
Helper
Posts: 103
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Post by yes on Feb 22, 2018 23:35:18 GMT
If humans could all be nice, so no wars or fighting, there will still be times of suffering like:
If I was to go touring in a exotic jungle somewhere on earth and get bitten by a snake, the venom from some of them supposedly cause quite a painful experience, where your blood thickens. If someone goes swimming somewhere in the Pacific ocean and gets stung by a Box Jellyfish, they'll receive a very painful experience. An Earthquake occurs and someone gets trapped under the rubble, could be a harsh experience
But these animals do these things because they sense a threat (or food)(or other reasons which I haven't looked at). It just seems weird when there are possible solutions to start the process of life, without this suffering. So I suppose there is a reason, but there must be a way to be able to minimise painful experiences. Pain is an emotion so does that mean Allahem feels no pain. Of course there's lots of nice things in this world as well, so I shouldn't always dwell on this subject, but I'm very curious on the WHY.
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Post by Immanuel on Feb 23, 2018 9:16:08 GMT
You are correct, "God" has no emotions or at least no such bodily weaknesses we have.
"Sin" comes to us when we are not striving hard to stand above it, but there is absolutely no excuse for the perception of accepting sin. However, sinning is an individual challenge and people should not judge others condescendingly.
Why there is suffering is because there is a mental challenge with this world and the world is supposed to go on your nerves and trick you into emotional responses and for this you have to be patient and in control. When you can remain balanced and sound, the harsh stimuli will make you evolve mentally.
The world is a creative "sandbox" for Elahem and there is esthetics in the design of everything and so creativity is not a human weakness and so is not the proper kind of imagination, actually (free form) creativity is a higher mental function and which is void in regular animals because they have no unique minds with an individual consciousness. Mental features are foolish to shun but such features should be embraced, it is the rejection to think which diminishes the spirit of people and the more the merrier when it comes to mental reflection, it does quickly grow the mentality, especially when the aim is soundness and logic detached from bodily influence. However, the other way around is also easy and it is easy to fall into decay and neglect of the mind, because of what the bodily is sucking you into.
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Post by cerulean on Feb 24, 2018 8:50:07 GMT
Also the issue that humans have is related to expectations, so for example they feel in "peace" when the ground is not shaking. But when it starts shaking all of a sudden there goes their "peace".
The example set in Quran is of those who set sails in the sea and, in fear, they "invoke" God. but once they reach the shore and they feel confident about what looks like a safe place they "forget" God. But what if the earth cracks open? or if there is a tsunami coming their way ? So this feeling of safety and "peace" is mostly illusion, but in reality our view should be that each moment could be our last (very hard thing to realize) and our peace should not depend on outside factors. And so each moment should be holly, not granted.
There is an interesting passage in Meditations by Marcus Aurelius which I'm currently reading:
So why do we prefer success over failure, pleasure over pain, wealth over poverty and life over death ? While all is a challenge. We should be indifferent. And the focus should be on not getting the wrong ideas by the impression such events have on us and try to view them for what they truly are and subsequently react to them appropriately.
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Post by Immanuel on Feb 25, 2018 9:05:06 GMT
The example set in Quran is of those who set sails in the sea and, in fear, they "invoke" God. but once they reach the shore and they feel confident about what looks like a safe place they "forget" God. But what if the earth cracks open? or if there is a tsunami coming their way ? So this feeling of safety and "peace" is mostly illusion, but in reality our view should be that each moment could be our last (very hard thing to realize) and our peace should not depend on outside factors. And so each moment should be holly, not granted. Even if it is doubtful this is not yet another traditionalist fabricated interpretation, their example is generally true and people often only think about supernatural forces and their origin when there is a crisis. This is because when you are prevented from "living out fully" then you may arrive upon contemplation and through this achieve some success during times of suffering. So why do we prefer success over failure, pleasure over pain, wealth over poverty and life over death ? While all is a challenge. We should be indifferent. And the focus should be on not getting the wrong ideas by the impression such events have on us and try to view them for what they truly are and subsequently react to them appropriately. It is because we are driven instinctively towards survival and social climbing, when we indulge in worldly activities. However, the developmental concept of this forum does also involve "success over failure", "pleasure over pain", "wealth over poverty" and "life over death", but the process is vastly different in it and it involves a total dissociation from body and mind and what is considered those from a bodily and instinctive perspective. Success is mental development, pleasure is the consolation of mental elevation, wealth is the mental expansion and life is life over death the same way but in a different light (because the mind is life and the body is death).
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