Aviel
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Post by Aviel on Jul 24, 2017 23:50:45 GMT
Why did Jesus say " God, why have you forsaken me ?" On crusifixion?
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Post by Immanuel on Jul 25, 2017 7:14:16 GMT
It is disputed what he said, different accounts of the event claim different things. I see no reason why he would have said "God, why have you forsaken me?" Either it is a later construction or the Greek composition does misrepresent the original Aramaic utterance, for Jesus spoke Aramaic and not Greek.
The Biblical Gospels are poorly translated which is something I have observed while investigating the matter. I have compared typical Semitic words and how they are often misinterpreted. Despite that, they are more accurate linguistically compared to Quran.
Be well Qarael Amenuel
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Aviel
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Post by Aviel on Jul 25, 2017 16:38:18 GMT
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Post by Immanuel on Jul 25, 2017 19:55:41 GMT
Hello,
It is difficult for me to say because I do not have the Aramaic script for what letters are used in Eli, Eli, Lemana Shabakthani. First three words are easy though, it is الى الى لمن if we were to use Arabic letters.
I would not call Aramaic an obscure language like the author of that website does. It is the skill of people interpreting it which is lackluster. Both Aramaic and Arabic are quite easy languages if you know them. It may be that some people, the people who translated it into Greek, lived far later than by traditional accounts and were weak at being able to understand. However, it appears people listening to Jesus when he made that utterance could not make out what he was saying, either. It may be plausible Aliy/Eli might be confused with Elias name as the translation suggests.
But we must be able to make out what Shabakthani means in order to understand further. Either it is one word or two and the transliteration is erroneous. In Arabic, the Shiin used in Aramaic, and probably Hebrew, is often Siin instead, and roots in Arabic are the same as in Aramaic no matter what people say and they mean the same meaning someone skilled at Arabic can decipher Aramaic even if it is grammatically different.
I browsed for a better transliteration and found this: Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani. Here is says "CH". This may be a letter that does not directly exist in Arabic, but is usually substituted with a Qaaf. There is a root for Siin-Ba-Qaf in Arabic:
Siin-Ba-Qaf: to be in advanced, go/pass before, surpass, get the better of, get in advanced, precede, overtake, come first ot the goal, outstrip, overcome, go forth previously, escape, go speedily, go first, race/strive/excel, prevent the act of advancing. One who precedes or outstrips in race, foremost masbuq - one who is surpassed or beaten or is out run in a race. I eventually found one set of Aramaic letters from a source (https://www.quora.com/Is-Eli-Eli-lema-lama-sabachthani-Hebrew-or-Aramaic): שבקתני
And ק is a Qaf indeed as far as I could tell by searching for a script table (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/f9/10/eb/f910ebdd46360b171e4aab43cbe23faf.jpg).
The letters are: Siin - Be - Qaf - Heh - Nun - Ye or س ب ق ه ن ى and the best transliteration I can produce is: Sebeq-heniy and the root is Se-Be-Qa.
So the phrase is in Arabic letters: الى الى لمن سبقهنى and that is obviously Aramaic so it would look different if it was Arabic.
So what does Jesus say by אלי, אלי למה שבקתני?
Aliy, this is a common word also used in Arabic, it is more of a pronoun indicating "substance" and as far as I can tell Jesus starts saying: "This is, this is". Then his reference next is depending on the meaning of the root in question "[of] (my) escape" or "[of] (my) passing". Jesus is probably telling people around him that he is hereby dying and giving up the spirit of his flesh. Opposite to common translators, there is absolutely NO "you" in the phrase above, it does not exist in the language here, so you can rule out the common translation entirely. If we put this analysis into the context of the Bible's Gospels, it is very plausible that Jesus is thus saying: "This, this is... me passing away" or "This, this is my passing on". Just as in Arabic, you use Kaf to say "you singular" and Kaum to say "you plural".
See how much one can understand simply by studying things objectively and understanding that both Arabic and Aramaic are family languages and each word in them does basically mean the same thing.
And no, Jesus does not say God has forsaken him. He is just sensing that it is the time of his departure and proclaims it.
Be well Qarael Amenuel
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Post by Immanuel on Jul 25, 2017 20:02:02 GMT
And the site is not right about what Jesus is saying as per my previous post. Be well Qarael Amenuel
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Post by rekkd on Jul 26, 2017 2:10:26 GMT
I have one comment on your explanation. You said the sentence has no "You" in it but since I know Egyptian Arabic. We can say for example "Lematha Sebteny" or "Leh Sebteny" which means "why did you leave me". It's very different from English.
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Post by Immanuel on Jul 26, 2017 6:05:55 GMT
Perhaps, but this is Aramaic and the Semitic language I am into. He says Aliy Aliy Lamena Sebeqheni! "This is, this is my passing on". That fits perfectly with the Aramaic letters provided. سبقهنى if we write it in Arabic letters instead. It would be possible to break the word down like سبق هن ى. The prior word is لمن which is simply ل +من, a common preposition. He speaks of himself.
Aramaic and Arabic are in essence very similar languages. The entire root is the same.
And the Arabic of today is a fabricated language tragically enough which does not reflect writings found from 1500-2000 years ago and the tongues which have an origin several thousand years ago. It grew forth according to a clergy in medieval times. L
Be well Qarael Amenuel
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Post by Immanuel on Jul 26, 2017 7:04:39 GMT
You can express yourself without pronouns in Arabic, so you indirectly mean "you", but that must come forth depending on the context. However, there are no other letters to symbolize you except ك and كم, anything beyond that is a falsehood.
Be well Qarael Amenuel
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