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Post by Johnny on Feb 22, 2018 18:19:15 GMT
Hello,
How would you understand this passage from the gospels:
If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.
— Luke 14:26
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Post by maveli on Feb 22, 2018 18:35:48 GMT
The key topic of Jesus's teaching is to give up the earthly including traditions and follow the path of spiritual development. He even refused to visit the funeral and characterized the very procedure the 'dead burrying their dead' so as to highlight the whole vanity of this tradition (Luke 9:60-62). Most people tend to ignore or do not know about these parts of the Gospelic teachings because they seem too radical for them to swallow.
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Post by Johnny on Feb 22, 2018 18:56:18 GMT
Yeah, most people wouldn not want to swallow this pill, because as Shakespeare said this life is liek a play for most people, and they are mere actors. If we think about for a second, we can see people act under the laws of this reality and tits rules. Males act to be manly, females act as females, to fit in the norm. If a person is reagrdded as low class/status citizen He/She should know his/her place and etc.
So going against the flow of this reality is the task? Becoming a free-thinking individual who is truly unique? Nothing more nothing less?
Shatter away the earthly reasoning such as natiinaolity, sex, ethincity? Because let be honest, the only reason we take this life as reality and our body as ourselves, is beacuse our minds/consiouness receives information/input from the body`s organs (eyes, ears, skin etc. ).
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Post by Johnny on Feb 22, 2018 19:01:30 GMT
Realazing we are not really here, and we are not from here is the liberating key to the real self. Maybe thats what Jesus meant that to find the end (after life) one must find the beginnig, because the one who finds his/her beginning/origin is the one who will leave this test/life. As he also said the ones who want to save their lifes will lose the eternal life. And the ones who are not afraid to lsoe their lfies will find everlasting life. And thats hwy he said the kingdom fo God is within you. There is no point in trying to find it here, beacuse our minds are not even here.
This allegory ( which is not mine), In my humble opinion, sums it up perfectly, the true reality of things :
Imagine a man in a diving suit, in the early 20th Century. One of those old, clunky affairs that still has to have a tube running up to an air compressor (or handpump) above the surface. Imagine, then, that something terrible happens in his brain, a stroke perhaps, and suddenly he forgets everything about his previous existence. And, not knowing who he was, he mistakes the diving suit for his own body, and the water he peers through for his natural environment. And all the while, because of the way the suit won't bend, he can never discover the air tube connecting him to the world he came from which is, without him realizing it, what's really keeping him alive. Lacking this vital clue, he never realizes that he's not "truly" of that undersea world at all, and stops seeing himself as a visitor.
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Post by maveli on Feb 22, 2018 19:10:05 GMT
You are correct, people for the most part follow established biological AND cultural patterns in their every day-to-day lives. Consider dating women, if you biological and cultural way of thinking and behavior suits the whole premise she will most likely become interested, i.e. you know how to chat her up, make her laugh, dress accordingly, know how and what to say and other 'necessary' mating rituals. If any of this fails, either your biological presentation is outside of league or say you do not make her laugh and THUS you do not cause the emotional outbreak in her body, then the screen will appaer with the 'access denied' in it (sorry for the parable). And emotions are primary these days, because often it is not your stability that matter (cultural factor), but the fact that you can generate certain hormonal reactions in her body to make her brain think that she is interested (biological factor). Of course there can be exceptions in the rules, but for the most part this is the way it is, and if it is not there is other biological and/or cultural factors involved in the mating rituals. So it is not you being 'an interesting person' but you having to follow certain cultural and biological programs that are accepted in society, this is what defines you as a law-obedient and 'normal' citizen or a member of society. In most cases, it is not what your independent mind that is not driven by emotions or vane desires that which generates interest in others, but actually your following established 'rules of the game', earthly game.
Just to be fair, same works with the males who often become blind and deluded and void of sound judgement when a beautiful woman uses her charms.
Thing is, that is temporary and more like a prison. When you eat, say a bar of chocolate, that is not what is 'tasty', but actually your brain generating response about it being 'tasty' for you due to components contained in the food.
Religions, traditions, cultural differences, from my personal contemplation, are created due to certain biological factors from where economic system arise, and then culture is established. For instance, sexual revolution may only happen in prosperous state where economic prosperity booms so much that it is no more sufficient to produce goods but also all sort of (mostly entertainment-based) services. And this is where women fully enter the market and become independent of men and keeping strict patriarchal-Christian traditions becomes meaningless in such economic situations and thus the culture becomes changed and adjusted accordingly. And not that I have anything against sexual revolution or anything, I am just stating an example.
But the thing is, all cultures as you can see from the above example are purely artificial and are always based on animalistic needs of concrete society, there is no good or bad human cultures, there is a way of living which IS supported by animalistic desires in men and women. So holding unto the traditional or cultural is not really the path that keeps that 'foothold of yours' i.e. the basis that keeps your spirit strong and develops you.
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Post by Johnny on Feb 22, 2018 19:21:42 GMT
However, here arises an inetersting question... Understaind how things work due to the nature (of this world, we call eathly life) of things, and how it works like a force that shapes you into whatever it sees as natural. Understaidng that this is a limiting factor outside of your own independent mind, one must allegorically speaing go against this world, go against the stream. However, where is the action in this case? Because as we see, not taking a part of this earhtly pleasures and desires which are autonomous and outside of your own free will, is one thing, but it sounds as if you do not take a active role in this reality?
How would a truly alive person/mind, spend his/her time, if He/she realized that the things that this reality is making look desiring and attarctive for his body, is just pleasing the body, thus pleasing the nature of THIS reality, thus they should be avoided to stay as indepdnent as possible from the autonomous drive of this world on the unique mind.
How would such person spend time in a dead world such as this?
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Post by maveli on Feb 22, 2018 19:27:34 GMT
Engage with other people actually, this is what I believe is productive for development, and not pursue emotional even when others angry you. Also human interaction is important, Jesus did not put 'love God' and 'love thy neighbour' together for no reason. Unlike monotheistic doctrines which places a human on the 100th step of the 'chain' and God first, Jesus put those together, which obviously symbolizes the collective mind which grows in you but also seeks the other so as to establish sound cooperation/interaction that is not driven by interest or other animalistic desires.
It is however rare to find someone who does not pursue any interest in yourself, I myself was lucky enough to find such a person. But interacting with people without pursuing selfish desires even if they try to angry or offend you is what makes you grow.
Word for love used in the gospels is probably word 'pursue', i.e. pursue the knowledge of God, pursue similar minds etc.
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Post by Johnny on Feb 22, 2018 19:46:16 GMT
My personal experience in this reagrd was as follows : I start talking and asking true questions of worth about this reality and the real purpose, however people loose focus and stop bothering listeining and engaging in the converstaion. However ther are expection to this rule, but its rare. Also peer pressure might be playing a role in this too. People want to still be themselves, or their earthy ideas of who they are and teir place in the world, beacuse this way they "know" and they are safe.
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Post by maveli on Feb 22, 2018 19:52:06 GMT
Do not take it as a missionary, make it your goal to be an example for those deluded since actions are stronger than words, look for those that might be interested and are 'truth seekers' or engage in conversations with quantum atheists and/or Christians, explain them your vision of Gospel's teachings etc.. Just an example my friend was beaten because he DID NOT ALLOW the thugs rape women in the bar. Yeah, I know, quite a strange example, but he did not use force, he sat in between the thugs and women they were harassing so he tried to intervene by NOT allowing his instinctive forces to overwhelm him but simply blocked the path and ruined the plans of those people in the bar, he used his mind and was ready to prevent evil BY NOT using evil as most people would do, i.e. call the police or attack them or try to take the matter by force, or try to deceive them into something by lying and thus turning their attention away from the women.
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Post by Johnny on Feb 22, 2018 19:58:44 GMT
However, in your particular example your friend decided to inetrvene in such situation in order to prevent "evil". However, Ive been seeing lately, in this forum, there are ideas that from Gods perspective there mihgt even not be such thing as good and bad. How so? Is there universal good and bad? Or is it too instinctive thinking?
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Post by maveli on Feb 22, 2018 20:05:01 GMT
There is no 'good' or 'bad' as long as we all remain in gihinnom (the place of 'fire' that exists as our material matrix, so to speak), but there is your ultimate Self which is your mind and which is connected to all other minds out there and showing an example of mind against the desires of flesh even if those desires are generated in another person shows bravery of the mind, lack of selfish and integrity, which is a good sign of your development. Helping others when you can may not be your ultimate goal but it is commendable as being indifferent to other people's cause is an example of anything but a unity of minds. Self-preservation is instinctive because mind does not die.
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Post by Johnny on Feb 22, 2018 20:12:44 GMT
Interesting perspective, Maveli...
Especially when you say "Self-preservation is instinctive because mind does not die", because as I see it the thing we call death is the moment when the mind disconnects from this body, thus it disconnnectes from this reality entirely.
What is very, VERY, interesting for me, is how is the xistance like after the mind gets disconnected from the human body, when in this life the mind exsisted while ineteratcing through a suit made of a thing called matter in a world which is too made from the same thing. Does it get attached to another body in another world made of another thing(s)?. And thus repating the cycle, trying to jump deimesinons/worlds, in the heavenly ladder?
Or is it just mind without any sense organs?
Interesting to note, that most of the time the reality which exists outside of this reality, is desricbed poorly and never with straght desrcitins and answers, in my humble opinion, of course.
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Post by maveli on Feb 22, 2018 20:22:45 GMT
I do not know precisely the 'mechanics' as of YET, only a small portion of the mysterious knowledge called the Quran was so far deciphered and the linguistic knowledge grows almost every day with new findings, but what is clear so far is:
<2:28> “Equal that to delusion about Being and to consequentially become lifeless towards your lives; as you die [as] you are revived. As one returns, <2:29> the person who evolved of you does not on the Earth assemble, as had reached the identity in the establishment of several identities and everything learned.”
Remaining on Earth is what the quantum physics would characterize the 'matter existing out of energy', i.e. the 'eternal fire of the valley of Gihinnom'.
Yes, you are correct there are thousands of schools of thought each seemingly talking about the same somewhat yet you will never get a straightforward answer. It is because it is not yet relevant here. Religious people portray hedonistic gardens of Paradise when they speak of where 'pios' and 'evil free' people go to, but once you realize the obvious deception which is a call for eternal hedonism and you think of the mind, then the mind itself becomes the problem, I understand. But evolving of the mind is the only way to find out, otherwise the very thing becomes futile, even if you know, it is not relevant for you, not 'topical'.
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Post by Johnny on Feb 22, 2018 20:47:48 GMT
Maveli, if you look at these two particular verses <2:28> “Equal that to delusion about Being and to consequentially become lifeless towards your lives; as you die [as] you are revived. As one returns, <2:29> the person who evolved of you does not on the Earth assemble, as had reached the identity in the establishment of several identities and everything learned.”
I will especially give my attention to this part "the person who evolved of you does not on the Earth assemble, as had reached the identity in the establishment of several identities and everything learned". According to th einfromation provided in this quote, the requieemrnt to get out of this reality, is to "reach the identity in the establishment of several identities and everything learned"
Now this is very important, because it says black on white what is the requiriement to pass this test, so thus, it is very improtant to understand what these words really trying to say. What is reaching a specific "identitiy" where you have such an identity that you established several identities? And in addition aquring an identity where you have learned everything, what "eveyrthing"?
Do You have any ideas, Maveli?
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Post by maveli on Feb 22, 2018 20:55:12 GMT
The word in question is what the traditional Quran translates as the 'Seven Heavens. Now if you look for this you will find the same concept in many other cultures, including Judean Kaballah, Gnosticism, Angelism, I believe also Buddhism and others had similar concepts. In those cultures these are usually perceived as pillars of development. In fact I understand it as that, with each pillar you progress further.
Of course the materialistic thinking and medieval authorities has turned the word into the baseless foundation of cosmology...
Current rendition translates it as this, but so far it is still not 100% understood what it means.
One explanation as derived from some esoteric movements explain it as getting rid of your previous 'identities' that were failed and thus become what we call 'totally complete Being' without the past identities, i.e. remove your inner daemons.
Both are however but interpretations so far and are not 100% knowledge, we shall look further, it is a very common combination in the Quran, so context should sooner or later become less of a puzzle.
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Post by Immanuel on Feb 23, 2018 6:50:06 GMT
Hello, How would you understand this passage from the gospels: If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. — Luke 14:26 The translation in Greek ought to be off a bit because it does not sound very friendly to "hate your father" etcetera and inconsistent with Eysua's overall message otherwise. The key is probably with the word used for hate. Let go of, be detached from or similar would be more logical. He is speaking about remaining in typical life stereotypes.
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Post by Immanuel on Feb 23, 2018 7:19:07 GMT
The key topic of Jesus's teaching is to give up the earthly including traditions and follow the path of spiritual development. He even refused to visit the funeral and characterized the very procedure the 'dead burrying their dead' so as to highlight the whole vanity of this tradition (Luke 9:60-62). Most people tend to ignore or do not know about these parts of the Gospelic teachings because they seem too radical for them to swallow. Yes, it is interesting that Christians have their church traditions of burial when allegedly holding onto a spiritual concept from a man who shunned traditions and said "let the dead bury their dead" sarcastically, even if he was absolutely 100% right. Burials are meaningless because the spirit of the person who died has already passed on and it is just an empty shell lying there. And if the person died while mentally progressing, there is a moment to celebrate, not feel sorrow, and the body you can dispose off in the fire so it is no sanitary issue, quick solution. Why mourn for something we all should look forward to and which there is no sorrow in? The tradition of burying people in coffins etc is from a belief of resurrection of the body in this world and is a very Pagan one. It is a very narrow minded belief. The belief has not changed much since the era of Pharaoh except that sunbeams no longer appear to be required to hit the burial chamber in order to resurrect. It is ancient superstition and imaginary beliefs.
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Post by Immanuel on Feb 23, 2018 7:34:40 GMT
Realazing we are not really here, and we are not from here is the liberating key to the real self. Maybe thats what Jesus meant that to find the end (after life) one must find the beginnig, because the one who finds his/her beginning/origin is the one who will leave this test/life. As he also said the ones who want to save their lifes will lose the eternal life. And the ones who are not afraid to lsoe their lfies will find everlasting life. And thats hwy he said the kingdom fo God is within you. There is no point in trying to find it here, beacuse our minds are not even here. There are simple answers to what Eysua/Jesus said when it comes to his expressions. When he says "find the beginning" it is like in his parable to trigger the "mustard seed" by which he meant the "mind seed" and when the mind has been initiated/conceived this means the beginning of a new better journey and so for this you have to be reborn anew, because remaining in the past will hold you back. As for wanting to save one's life it means the superficial wish to hold onto what they have dearly in terms of materials including their own bodies. Your search is where your heart is. When you care overly about your life, that means you want to use every minute of it to find pleasure while it lasts and then it is easy to have the mind preoccupied by which does not make you grow.
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Post by Immanuel on Feb 23, 2018 8:39:46 GMT
However, in your particular example your friend decided to inetrvene in such situation in order to prevent "evil". However, Ive been seeing lately, in this forum, there are ideas that from Gods perspective there mihgt even not be such thing as good and bad. How so? Is there universal good and bad? Or is it too instinctive thinking? The expressions should not be misinterpreted, just because the viewpoint of good versus evil is imagined, it does not mean one should not aim for development which includes those around them. Development is an aim with this environment and that which is unproductive should be avoided. For example of why good versus evil is relative is because the world in which we live contains elements of creation which could be regarded as evil and it would make "God" evil because "God" created the world and the instinct of man and placed the minds of people into these creatures of Homo sapiens which have violent tendencies and are driven towards gross instinctive behavior. That would by standard terminology make "God" evil and only someone who refuses to see the truth would deny it, and they often instead put the blame on a nonexistent individual called Satan, but who created Satan then? And religious people deny "free will", but that only worsens the case, because then "God" is responsible all out for every one of our actions because we cannot be guilty of what we cannot control. You see how much one can work out through logic. If you refrain from assuming control, then you are responsible because you did not, but "God" is understanding because you are exposed to a very harsh testing environment and "the mind has to be conceived" and given nurture. Yet if you have pity, you would be able to compassionately feel to be in their shoes, of the women in the bar who are harassed and even though the women are deluded, engaged in a destructive lifestyle and kind of begging for the kind of thing to happen around instinctive animals who lack a soul; it may be understandable to say something during the scene. However, one must also reflect upon when and where an intervention is productive and if it is throwing yourself to disaster when it is inefficient. The scene of the women and the assaulting men could be likened by nature, although animals do not behave illogically and thus do not show up in an unnatural manner but this is due to the conflict between being an animal and possessing trace amounts of a human elevated spirit making one an independently functioning individual, and the women instinctively dress in revealing ways with "enhanced beauty" (make-up) and then place themselves in a context where lowlife men roam which is obviously asking for trouble. Naturally, if we look at the natural point of view, the women are begging to be mated with, but deluded thoughts and ideas make them ignorant of how they behave. Among animals, the women would be signalling I am willing to mate and the mindless animal males would take the opportunity instinctively. These women are toying with instincts among weak-minded men and they are irresponsible of what they are doing although they are doing it in plain ignorance, and in ways they are partially guilty of what happens. Women dress in revealing and/or beauty-enhancing ways, no matter what they say, instinctively and to attract and/or be attractive. These women are pressuring men to react, they seek to elicit a response. However, a woman cannot help her natural appearance and should not be blamed for this, and should be allowed to wear uncumbersome clothes, and in fact be allowed to do whatever she likes. I am not advocating a religious belief or treating the woman as an inferior being, but we are entirely speaking about what would be wisest considering the circumstances. Nevertheless, also a woman would benefit from shunning the instinctive and it does not have anything to do with misogyny and I would urge also a man to do the same and not flex muscles and whatever makes a man behave like a lowly beast. But if to return to the bar scene, what would intervening really accomplish? Fine, that the women are not raped is perhaps better than if they were, but would it change anything in the women for the better? Probably not and they likely continue with their lifestyle and perhaps encounter the same scene again, in which they are actually raped, and then the sacrifice of the body of the male friend who got beaten was in vain, because in the greater picture it did not accomplish anything developmental and it did not change anything, and women all over the societies continue to be raped. The solution is a society-wide reformation and a different look at life and better understanding bodily urges, i.e. dealing with the root of the problem. And people have to listen and accept your advice and choose themselves to reform, it must be something coming from their own "hearts". So essentially what the friend did could be regarded as foolish if it did not accomplish anything of change, in intervening in the lives of people who through delusion seem to want to have it this way. It may appear cruel in saying so, but it is like trying to stop an animal which has caught a female to mate with and where the chase to mate is not unnatural and the actual mating is defeating the female, it would naturally attack you for meddling in between and interrupting the ritual. Or if you stop a predator for killing its prey, it will see it as a competition with you and attack you. Or if rivaling animals combat with each other and you show up in the middle, then only faint signals will turn you over to one of the factions. It is about interfering in animal lives, for those who are most mindless of humans are like animals, for their mind is within an actual animal and their minds lack development. If you then just interfere in the middle is like if you started to talk to animals in the middle of an animal ritual, and this is utterly stupid. If you wish to change, you have to find receptive people and influence people through (ab)using their instincts to change for the better, sort of a manipulation, for people are like sheep when their minds are undeveloped.
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Post by Immanuel on Feb 23, 2018 9:02:03 GMT
Maveli, if you look at these two particular verses <2:28> “Equal that to delusion about Being and to consequentially become lifeless towards your lives; as you die [as] you are revived. As one returns, <2:29> the person who evolved of you does not on the Earth assemble, as had reached the identity in the establishment of several identities and everything learned.” I will especially give my attention to this part "the person who evolved of you does not on the Earth assemble, as had reached the identity in the establishment of several identities and everything learned". According to th einfromation provided in this quote, the requieemrnt to get out of this reality, is to "reach the identity in the establishment of several identities and everything learned" Now this is very important, because it says black on white what is the requiriement to pass this test, so thus, it is very improtant to understand what these words really trying to say. What is reaching a specific "identitiy" where you have such an identity that you established several identities? And in addition aquring an identity where you have learned everything, what "eveyrthing"? Do You have any ideas, Maveli? The translation is based on literal meanings through interpretations from an archaic language and in attempts to transfer the literary meaning into English. This causes multiple problems in trying to retain the literary message from the original script, not to mention that some medieval fool wished to ignorantly insert a faulty verse system further breaking up the cluttered passages without any proper indicator where sentences start and stop, so the work is much about finding where and when sentences have their interrupts. Despite the problematic rendition here the philosophical message should come across and if you consider that there are several features of this world but there is only one faint one which is correct, then the message is quite clear. The answer to the question of the passage is the mind and to nurture this feature instead of nurturing anything else found in the world e.g. trying to fulfill the body (physical exercise), gathering of resources or being the most famous person in the world. The simple answer lies within your mind, this is the feature the passage is speaking about. The passage do require some translation work and "the establishment" is meant to convey a meaning of like "a pool" of sorts and I duly notice the issue and the problem will be addressed as the passages are revised. As concerning the passage, linguistic breakthrough has been made about سم Sim which is used for the rendition of feature/identity and the word does speak of "modeling" or "condition", and frankly speaking I have had issues defining the word in English. As to speak of the translation as "identity" this rendering is lackluster because it may give the incorrect signals and problems with interpretation. The better rendition may be "reached the condition in/from a pool of multiple conditions", possible such. What the multiple conditions are could be further investigated, but logically if you are not ascended then you remain on Earth and so you can "respawn" in various of different conditions there, some better and some worse. The right condition leads to a detachment from "the attachment to bodily" (Jihenom), but it appears you can run off in a variety of conditions on Earth which chaos you can observe on Earth with your own eyes.
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Post by maveli on Feb 23, 2018 10:40:31 GMT
They were not really dressed provocatively, more like average and I think, judjing from the 'ideology' of this place, were into the rock culture, yet of course it was foolish of them to go in that particular bar anyways, we have several bars and the one the incident happened at is probably the worse place as it is most of the time feeled with antisocial individuals. Yet my friend did not in any way condemn them for being there and they thanked him after the thugs were gone. He did not do it for the thanks either, it was his personal Self that tried to prevent evil and he showed a genuine example of courage and if his action did made other think then it was not a vane task. If it did not make others think then this is the problem of the people, the argument was that a mindful person should show positive example of his/her own development unto others and it is up to the particular state of development of others as to how they will percieve, accept and analyze the information, hence actions are stronger than words.
So it was not at all foolish. Showing compassion and courage in a place where gross affliction happens is like going outside for shopping, i.e. we all exist in the place called the materialistic world which is formed as cruel be it a bar or the shop where instincts of mass consuming dictate the masses how to spend 'from the wealth of theirs'. If it was foolish to show examples of genuine courage and not following self-preservation then Jesus would aswell refuse to 'salam' women from being 'possessed' by the daemons. Surely 'salaming' one woman will not change the world so why bother? It is the example for the otusiders, or the crowd that MIGHT be influenced by it.
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Post by Immanuel on Feb 23, 2018 11:18:31 GMT
If it made a difference it was not foolish but strategical, like I said it is situational. You misinterpret my stance. It is commendable to save a potential candidate for ascension no matter who that would be. And one's behavior is posing an influence on people, particularly those who are sheepish, so your presence wherever it may be does make a difference overall, but likewise it is about strategical appearance, and one should always aim to be most efficient.
If you aim to help beggars instead of changing the mentality of society, you are for example inefficient and while your donation is commendable, your contribution is the drop in the ocean. The reasoning behind the story about the women and assaulting men is following a similar principle. If you do not change the society, you will always have the miserable people around you. And with how the society looks like now, if you help one beggar, there will be two more, for they are desperate people.
My meaning is, your ruin does not help unless your doings have had a lasting change on the environment, otherwise it is just like remaining on a boat trying to patch up a hole while it has too many holes anyway and it will anyways sink, is it better for you to sink with it or find a better alternative? Perhaps you should aim at what caused the holes in the boat to begin with.
I am not advocating passivity and to be a bystander, but to be too involved with the deluded lifestyle of people and their conflicts which escalate into wars is not your conflict, they are driven like animals and in their mentality they act and behave like one. You are to offer an alternative, but to prevent their endeavors to be like animals is not your game.
Anyways, I did not attack the doing of your friend and tell that he is stupid, circumstances are what they are and I may have felt compelled to react in a situation like that myself, but lessons like these are still worth considering and whether what you do in "turning things right" does make a difference in the long run if you are only working on a small scale. A societal change is necessary to deal with the escalating problems and it will only get worse and according to my own logic it is vain to try to hold it up if it is determined to go down.
When we come to the superiority and strength of mind, this does make a difference, but only to people who are not too into the bodily and it is actually more efficient to "fish for" potential candidates and to go actively looking for those you see are fit. You are not here to save the world, for the world is going down anyways, but you are here to save those you can, and it is like evacuating those you can from the sinking boat with holes I mentioned in an earlier paragraph, it is not worth trying to patch it up and while it sinks you can look for those who will respond to reason and understand the ship has to be evacuated as soon as possible and for as long as there are lifeboats, all while the ship is under heavy bombardment and the lifeboat may as well be hit, for many fail despite that they realize they have to take the lifeboat because they steer the lifeboat in the wrong direction in the chaos or make it tip over.
Above is another from the long history of parables, because parables may be easier than a direct explanation, the conceived pictures may be easier to grasp.
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Post by Immanuel on Feb 23, 2018 11:38:10 GMT
Just some rhetorical questions; why do you think Eysua was traveling around and seem to have handpicked those to follow him? And why did he say "being fishers of men" and why did he travel around and urge people to do so and there gather people with them? And he said "do not go here and there", why?
Okay. One reason is the Internet was not invented yet, but he sought to form a kind of web of people.
For example today, I would urge people not to go to Saudi Arabia and preach for it would be a foolish man's mission and in vain to deaf ears mostly and you would have to flee for your life more than actually focusing on what you are there for.
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Post by maveli on Feb 23, 2018 12:18:55 GMT
He did not do it because it is commendable or not nor was he pursuing the idea to save the world. What it was is the manifestation of himSelf, i.e. his inner self and which is driven by his principles. It was not in vain simply because the manifestation itself was in an absolute opposition towards what is generally acceptd. He did not: call the police, call friends to help, start trying to persuade the animals, start yelling and cry for help or ignore the situation altogether. These points are among the most popular of what people would normally do in such situation, he did everything of the opposite that which included his own personal Self not driven by any anger nor an attempt to be commendable by those girls nor a wish to dominate among the animals. And this is not in vain because this is an example to everyone who was present and this is what he does for the fishing.
In fact it is an example of a social situation he was there and that which he influenced, but he also has a lot of mental power and he knows how to use his mind to cure illnesses without having to consume prescriptions.
I probably know this individual more than anybody else present here.
The sole reason of the example I provided was for Johnny who was curious about what is it that which concieves actions in what we learn here, how does it transpire in our actions and not just thoughts. If actions did not matter then seclusion and monascticism would be probably a better place to go.
Regarding the strategy and 'fishing' then this is what my friend primarily does. In fact one of the thugs, within the company among them, could have then contemplated upon the whole situation, as well as others present during the moment and that could have caused a changed in their minds on what they do, how they live and pretty much spark thoughts in them. Thoughts can sometimes cause radical changes if a person is not yet completely dead/
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Post by maveli on Feb 23, 2018 12:24:39 GMT
Foolishnes is when you go to the 'gentleman's club' and try to convience the girl dancers there about the vanity of their lives. This is foolishness. Or similar actions. Or going outside just to feed the army of beggars. If that is someone's primary aim then this is mental and void of any reason. Just like you said. But learning to 'catch the moment' and manifest the Self is not, learning to look for individuals who can be sparked and then continue to teach them is not in vain. It is to look for notable candidates while being an example yourself.
It is better to be an example that look for others who are already realized and examplary. While we live here and the world is what it is we do not look for others who are already developed, we can only unite, but we look for others who can become developed and we sow seeds of our actions that which spark ideas.
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Post by Immanuel on Feb 23, 2018 12:29:19 GMT
Very well, his absence of instinctive motivation was developmental for the entire situation. This was good.
It is the truth that if everyone in the world behaves poorly, this is not a reason for you to do the same and because humans are prone to imitation of each other and stereotypes, going against the flow is surely showing of development.
Please do not get me wrong overall and instead see it on a multi-band spectrum where what I said has relevance, I was speaking for the greater picture, but one's image is clearly valuable in the presence of others and like Quran says, we should not isolate ourselves i.e. go into seclusion and it involves everyone with our condition and so we have to live among humans to spread the light. Yet we cannot be upset by things in the world, we cannot afford to be emotionally affected and if we are agitated by the commotion in the world it will lead us astray, this is in its "programming". However, the major reason why we are to live among humans is that it provides us with stimuli for development as it is the difficulty which stimulates it. For example, you do not build muscles by avoiding the dumbbell.
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Post by Immanuel on Feb 23, 2018 12:34:57 GMT
Foolishnes is when you go to the 'gentleman's club' and try to convience the girl dancers there about the vanity of their lives. This is foolishness. Or similar actions. Or going outside just to feed the army of beggars. If that is someone's primary aim then this is mental and void of any reason. Just like you said. But learning to 'catch the moment' and manifest the Self is not, learning to look for individuals who can be sparked and then continue to teach them is not in vain. It is to look for notable candidates while being an example yourself. It is better to be an example that look for others who are already realized and examplary. While we live here and the world is what it is we do not look for others who are already developed, we can only unite, but we look for others who can become developed and we sow seeds of our actions that which spark ideas. I agree his doing seems noble and showing publicly who you are is a must in gaining people's confidence in you. Most importantly we have to demonstrate the clear mental benefits of adhering to the concept by which we stand, in the right ways and here does strategy and control of the mind come in. Shining of clear sharpness of mind and in arguments is obviously convincing.
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Post by maveli on Feb 23, 2018 12:39:53 GMT
I understand.
I would recommend one Art film about the useless help and the film is about a person with mental problems trying to help everyone, but frankly this film is in Russian so I am not sure if it is of any use for the present here. What I mean is that my friend 'knows what'up' and this is why I said earlier to help others is not your primary goal in life but if you are developed you certainly do not want to keep it secret and actions are more than doing, they have this persistent influence unlike wise words which fade if you do not practice what is prescribed.
Now I can't but to recall the Quran alone followers. This is what they do. They cite verses, which seem wise to them [some actually are]. But they do not learn the lesson, they only parrot verses as people on Free minds do, because words are powerful but they are meant to spark the thoughts and ideas and the latter are meant to start the change in one's life and the change happens via the actions.
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Post by Immanuel on Feb 23, 2018 13:13:01 GMT
I concur.
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