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Post by Wanderer on May 17, 2018 18:17:19 GMT
Hello people, I see quite often people here interprete different kinds of religioous texts in a fresh unique way. Thus, I would ask your opinion about this saying of Iasus from Gospel of Thomas (which would be quite gnostic for the traditional christian), To my best knowledge the original text that is called Gospel of Thomas nowadays, was found in the Egypt in the 20th century and is written in the Coptic language.
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Post by Wanderer on May 17, 2018 18:36:32 GMT
I know, asking another questions before the first was answered might not be very wise. However, my willingnes for the truth is greater than human rules of etiqute, so pardon me. Thus, I will ask another question, Im not forcing anyone to say anything or comment, however if someone could answer or say its opinion I would be very thankfull, and You will help yourself too, because at the end of the day we all are fish in the same aquarium, arent we?
In addition to the first saying of Iasus from The Gospel of Thomas, found another very intriuing saying from Iasus from the Gospel of Thomas :
Jesus saw some babies nursing. He said to his followers, “These nursing babies are like those who enter the kingdom.”
They said to him, “Then shall we enter the kingdom as babies?”
Jesus said to them, “When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom].”
What is the most probable interpetation of what Iasus (if indeed He uttered these words) was wanting to say. It is easy to see that He is speaking in arables in order to fish for the Big (Spiritually mature/intelligent) fish. Hwoever, is there anyone here who can understand the true meaning of these words?
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Post by Immanuel on May 18, 2018 11:14:55 GMT
Hello people, I see quite often people here interprete different kinds of religioous texts in a fresh unique way. Thus, I would ask your opinion about this saying of Iasus from Gospel of Thomas (which would be quite gnostic for the traditional christian), To my best knowledge the original text that is called Gospel of Thomas nowadays, was found in the Egypt in the 20th century and is written in the Coptic language. Hello, It is always difficult to know what an underlying text once said which has been translated into another language and perhaps with its issues with translation. Mountain can imply one's manner/mode/foundation in Semitic etymology referring to the ground on which one stands. My philosophical interpretation of this passage would be based on common misconceptions about the Semitic etymology of words and my insight into the truth behind our existence. Eysua says here that two should become one and that together as one they are sons of man. What is he referring to? Arguably, considered the topic, he is speaking of mind and body and that there should be no conflict between mental will and bodily urges and when the mind is strong enough it can make the body submitted to its will and hence they can become sons of man. What does son of man mean, it is as translated nearly incomprehensible? Man is probably a translation of Adam, which word means similar to Persistence. It is a code word similar to the "children of Israel". It is written "sons" and one son is ibn ابن and multiple sons is written ban/ben بن and it is genderless so it can be either a male or female, so the translation of sons here is probably incorrect and should be children i.e. children of Adam. Now the word Ibn does not necessarily imply a biological tie but can be a relationship due to similar traits and a group of people with similar aims and goals can be the same Bani. When Bani Adam is used it refers to people with the attribution Adam on them, which means they are all persistent. As we learn from the scriptures, one has to distinguish the spirit from the flesh and then use the spirit to seek a way to unite the body under the mental training. The mountain may as seen here not refer to a physical mountain but be a metaphor for saying if you command with the mind that the body (your foundation or mode of presence) is to do something it does so and you can be in command over yourself. The goal for you is to change your life and abandon your habits for something better and that is to go elsewhere. Persistence is the ability to press on when you are encountering opposition and the opposition is the bodily, but when the mind can reconcile with the body then persistence is nigh and then the "mountain" can be moved. Humans are not so free-willed as they may think as long as they live under instinctive rule and when the spirit is not conceived and it does not rule over flesh, there is no moved mountains.
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Post by Wanderer on May 18, 2018 17:39:53 GMT
Immanuel can it be talking about this: Most peoples minds are fragmented into two : the consious mind and the unconsious mind. Can it be so that Iasus is talking about making the sub-consioius mind and the consious mind into one mind, one consiousness?
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Post by Immanuel on May 18, 2018 18:27:08 GMT
Immanuel can it be talking about this: Most peoples minds are fragmented into two : the consious mind and the unconsious mind. Can it be so that Iasus is talking about making the sub-consioius mind and the consious mind into one mind, one consiousness? I doubt so. What Semitic scriptures usually speak of is the contrast between body and mind. The so-called subconscious mind is only an often inaccessible part of the consciousness due to the diminishing of the flesh and belongs to the mind which is one entity. In order to progress it is required that one gives conception to the spirit/spark (the Holy Spirit can it also be called) and this evolves their seed (nafs) and seed = their personal self, the conscious perception of reality. Nevertheless, the subconscious part, or rather at the time inaccessible part of the consciousness, is something to strive for and to let it surface. When one has a complete mind it is powerful and potent. There is a second "consciousness" and that is the perception of the animal body and its reality is what causes the phenomenon called dreams or even daydreaming, and it can even affect behavior which it does in unwary and weakminded people. Many people on Earth are actually mostly like empty shells of an elevated primate and have not conceived the Holy Spirit in them. When the animal's perception and reality is one with the spirit it is assimilated and likely what Eysua is speaking about, and this makes a person bound to persist i.e. among the Bani Adam. Eysua also said that whoever finds themselves have found the Father, he meant whoever discovers their true selves knows God, which word means the Being/Existence, so the real translation is whoever knows themselves knows about Existence, and if Abbu/Father was used then it means they have learned about their conception.
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Post by Immanuel on May 18, 2018 19:04:17 GMT
The talking about the mountain is obviously either mistranslated or a parable. It says if you say go elsewhere to a mountain it will move elsewhere, it clearly speaks of gaining command and what can the command be over? Command over a mountain which is dead matter? Or is the mountain a metaphor for something else, like your platform in which you reside and it being the assimilated part into one he starts speaking of.
A problem is the saying appears to be a quote from a greater lecture with more parts and so it is like taking something out of context. I mean, he starts saying: "Take the two" and it implies the listener already knows what is spoken of. Thanks to knowing the subject Eysua taught he did most probably speak about spirit and flesh and it fits perfectly with distinguish/separate/isolate the spirit from the flesh.
The Gospel of Thomas has the problem of containing random quotes of Eysua and not complete lectures. It does not render it useless, but it can be impractical. The good thing is you can use them to check them against the usual Biblical Gospels.
Personally I find the Gospel of Marcion to be interesting even if multiple pages are missing and there is no complete record.
Eysua rebukes people for calling him a glutton and a drunkard, probably causing them not to believe in him as a prophet and considering him a sinner. This is because Eysua did not care much for fasting nor did he refrain from wine or food to any large extent knowing it is irrelevant for mental progression. He seems to have considered John the Baptist to have been more abstaining than himself, apparently referring to him as the best of his kin.
Eysua rebuked people for judging only by what they see and according to established stereotypes, and Eysua refused to adhere to them meaning he lost popularity among many people.
It is similar to how I am uncensored in my opinion about religion and I am not particularly much trying to show I am pious. It is better to be impious but not adhere to stereotypes. Stereotypes have the most dumbing effect on the mind.
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Post by Immanuel on May 18, 2018 19:18:28 GMT
I know, asking another questions before the first was answered might not be very wise. However, my willingnes for the truth is greater than human rules of etiqute, so pardon me. Thus, I will ask another question, Im not forcing anyone to say anything or comment, however if someone could answer or say its opinion I would be very thankfull, and You will help yourself too, because at the end of the day we all are fish in the same aquarium, arent we? In addition to the first saying of Iasus from The Gospel of Thomas, found another very intriuing saying from Iasus from the Gospel of Thomas : Jesus saw some babies nursing. He said to his followers, “These nursing babies are like those who enter the kingdom.” They said to him, “Then shall we enter the kingdom as babies?” Jesus said to them, “When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom].” What is the most probable interpetation of what Iasus (if indeed He uttered these words) was wanting to say. It is easy to see that He is speaking in arables in order to fish for the Big (Spiritually mature/intelligent) fish. Hwoever, is there anyone here who can understand the true meaning of these words? The second quote of Eysua is clearer as to what he teaches. He says one should cease with their biological gender identity. This is very logical and already common knowledge to me. The spirit has no sex and sex is only bound to the flesh. He says the inner (mind) should be like the outer (body) and the outer (body) should be like the inner (mind). It resonates with make the two into one. He says "when" in a succession, meaning the first part of inner, outer, lower and upper is what he says first, and then male and female into one, he refers to the body's physical gender identity giving a stereotypical projection on the mind. For the same reason it can be good for a man to spend time with a woman and vice versa i.e. the marriage bond may be beneficial. The woman should learn from the man not to be a woman and the man should learn from the woman not to be a man. If you are both a man and woman this helps greatly in being more complete, and in order to conceive the spirit. The man and woman are two sides of the same coin, and if you are going to be only a man you will fail.
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Post by Wanderer on May 19, 2018 22:04:02 GMT
Interesting... so one should really strip ones eathly identity, beacuse it is just the identity of the body, not the mind/the real individual who controls this animal body wheter it be male or female. So to identify with the body and its idenity it is a failure. So in order to get rid off the bodily identity entirely one must also stop associeting with the body`s nationality race and etc., do you agree? Or my logic is not sound?
So should the stories about Iasus where He walks on water, turns water into wine, heals the sick by "faith", and he asks the people who want him to cure them if THEY themselves bealive in him , if they do they get healed in the stories and Iasus says "it is beacuse of their fate they get cured". However should these stories be taken literal or methaphoric?
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Post by Immanuel on May 21, 2018 16:43:09 GMT
Interesting... so one should really strip ones eathly identity, beacuse it is just the identity of the body, not the mind/the real individual who controls this animal body wheter it be male or female. So to identify with the body and its idenity it is a failure. So in order to get rid off the bodily identity entirely one must also stop associeting with the body`s nationality race and etc., do you agree? Or my logic is not sound? So should the stories about Iasus where He walks on water, turns water into wine, heals the sick by "faith", and he asks the people who want him to cure them if THEY themselves bealive in him , if they do they get healed in the stories and Iasus says "it is beacuse of their fate they get cured". However should these stories be taken literal or methaphoric? That is a correct assumption. The body is its own organism and actually foreign to the mind but "force-attached" to it as part of an illusion with the purpose of stimulating mental growth as through the stimuli of difficulty the mind is tested. This is why Eysua refers to the birds in the trees and asks if the people are not better than them, as to make a similar comparison. The mind of a human is clearly superior to the primate body in which it resides. Everything which is instinctively driven must be avoided. This is possible to understand through reflection. Since you are not an animal with instincts and can oppose them, this is what you have to do in order to grow, since what prevents the mind from growing is not using it against the provided stimuli. It is the neglect of using the willpower of the mind which hampers the growth, and the more "aggressive" rebellion one makes the better the results, whereas if one does surrender ultimately to every kind of impulse/temptation then this impairs the development.
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Post by Immanuel on May 21, 2018 17:10:25 GMT
He possibly could actually heal people by wielding the same power as Elahem, it would not be strange and farfetched, only manipulating the atoms and molecules of the world the same way as Elahem projects it, by mental strength.
Whether he says "believe I can do this" depends on what word is used in the original language. Believe is a very poor translation of "amen". It might be that he asks "so do you understand I can do this?", so that the person understands he is actually performing the doing. It may therefore be rhetorical.
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Post by Wanderer on Jun 7, 2018 16:12:13 GMT
Amenuel, if Iasus did not put that much care into fasting as in your own words, because "it is irrelevant for mental progression". Then why having sex is something that should be avoided? I mean how can having sex block one's mental progression?
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Post by Immanuel on Jun 7, 2018 17:42:32 GMT
I did not say that it is completely irrelevant, only that the emphasis of typical religious people is exaggerated, and eating for pleasure and not for healthiness is still similar to the sex question.
Eating is instinctively driven, but not directly regulated by the ancient decree, and what excessive eating goes under is vanity, forgetting not to indulge, and if the eating occupies mental processing time then it is vanity.
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