Post by Hamil on Sept 21, 2019 20:21:10 GMT
Hello Immanuel, please read entirety of this message, thanks.
You usually say that Quran in its current understanding/interpretation is wrong and useless barbaric scripture. However, what about the scientific facts that it talks about which were not known at the time it was created, such as formation of an embryo an other examples?
What about just these 100 points from the Book (I put them at the of this message) which teach the reader excellence of character and growth of an individual? Just check the fact that Quran clearly states that there should be no interest systems. Now look at the current world and how as in your own words this interest based capitalistic system is turning indirectly into slaves. If people just listened to this one advice we wouldnt see the capitalistic slavery we see today.
You usually critique Quran but it does directly speak the same underlying message you are preaching, check this out:
Where I see the biggest difference in your message and the official Quran-Interpretations is the idea of a Final destinations after death : Paradise and Hell
.
Paradise is like best of the best for eternity and Hell is like worst of the worst for eternity. However if God is 100% just then it boils down to one reaps what he sew in his earthly life. It is 100% justice. So in the end it is the person himself responsible where he ends up
, God doesnt make the choices for the person
.
You usually answer with something like this : "Why would God have any reason to punish people in hell, God is above such things". However, Immanuel, God is the Being who is in control over reality you reside in. Cant God do whatever God sees fit as something to do? Isnt the fact that God has total control of reality is one of the aspects that exactly makes him God and us humans, who couldnt do anything if God just decided at this very moment to stop our own very hearts?
You as a Being who is under control of Gods reality, you are deciding what is pointless to do and what is not, such as , as you said that putting people to hell would be pointless for God. But this just means you are assuming who God is as a Being and you expect God to think the way you´d think and proceed.
Another point that your message differs is that you tend to see God as a collective of multiple beings, however what difference does it make in the total scheme of things? How can you be so sure that it is a collective of beings with no hierarchy in their system? Ultimate God with a hierachy of angels, it makes sense and it is logical it is so. Lets just ask to ourselves ultimately if a angel would seem to us God-like what is the difference between an angel and the Ultimate God/Ruler? Again it is because the angels are under control of God. Would God be God if it was the opposite?
Why You think earth is a mess? Because people still want to do things their own way ignoring the wisdom God is providing, if people would just stop their own ways and listened and obeyed God life on earth would be much better.
And there is no meaning in rebelling the very fact that it is God/Ultimate-Being who gave us life, because there was a time we did not exist hence we have a birth day. It is just fact that God has total control of reality, we cannot even make one of our gray hairs turn dark again or make ourselves shorter by an inch. If you thought really carefully enough you would see how in a dependent situation we are in. The very own bodies we carry we have no ultimate control over.
Here for example same thing told about in the book of Matthew and the official-interpretation of Quran, but You would say it is just a coincidence, yes?
Matthew 19:28: Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Quran 83:22-36: Indeed, the righteous will be amid bliss.
On thrones, looking on.
But on that Day, those who believed will laugh at the unbelievers.
On luxurious furnishings, looking on.
Have the unbelievers been repaid for what they used to do?
1. Do not be rude in speech (3:159)
2. Restrain Anger (3:134)
3. Be good to others (4:36)
4. Do not be arrogant (7:13)
5. Forgive others for their mistakes (7:199)
6. Speak to people mildly (20:44)
7. Lower your voice (31:19)
8. Do not ridicule others (49:11)
9. Be dutiful to parents(17:23)
10. Do not say a word of disrespect to parents (17:23)
11. Do not enter parents’ private room without asking permission (24:58)
12. Write down the debt (2:282)
13. Do not follow anyone blindly (2:170)
14. Grant more time to repay if the debtor is in hard time (2:280)
15. Don’t consume interest (2:275)
16. Do not engage in bribery (2:188)
17. Do not break the promise (2:177)
18. Keep the trust (2:283)
19. Do not mix the truth with falsehood (2:42)
20. Judge with justice between people (4:58)
21. Stand out firmly for justice (4:135)
22. Wealth of the dead should be distributed among his family members (4:7)
23. Women also have the right for inheritance (4:7)
24. Do not devour the property of orphans (4:10)
25. Protect orphans (2:220)
26. Do not consume one another’s wealth unjustly (4:29)
27. Try for settlement between people (49:9)
28. Avoid suspicion (49:12)
29. Do not spy and backbite (2:283)
30. Do not spy or backbite (49:12)
31. Spend wealth in charity (57:7)
32. Encourage feeding poor (107:3)
33. Help those in need
by finding them (2:273)
34. Do not spend money extravagantly (17:29)
35. Do not invalidate charity with reminders (2:264)
36. Honor guests (51:26)
37. Order righteousness to people only after practicing it yourself(2:44)
38. Do not commit abuse on the earth (2:60)
39. Do not prevent people from mosques (2:114)
40. Fight only with those who fight you (2:190)
41. Keep the etiquettes of war (2:191)
42. Do not turn back in battle (8:15)
43. No compulsion in religion (2:256)
44. Believe in all prophets (2:285)
45. Do not have sexual intercourse during menstrual period (2:222)
46. Breast feed your children for two complete years (2:233)
47. Do not even approach unlawful sexual intercourse (17:32)
48. Choose rulers by their merit (2:247)
49. Do not burden a person beyond his scope (2:286)
50. Do not become divided (3:103)
51. Think deeply about the wonders and creation of this universe (3:191)
52. Men and Women have equal rewards for their deeds (3:195)
53. Do not marry those in your blood relation (4:23)
54. Family should be led by men (4:34)
55. Do not be miserly (4:37)
56.Do not keep envy (4:54)
57. Do not kill each other (4:92)
58. Do not be an advocate for deceit (4:105)
59. Do not cooperate in sin and aggression (5:2)
60. Cooperate in righteousness (5:2)
61. ’Having majority’ is not a criterion of truth (6:116)
62. Be just (5:8)
63. Punish for crimes in an exemplary way (5:38)
64. Strive against sinful and unlawful acts (5:63)
65. Dead animals, blood, the flesh of swine are prohibited (5:3)
66. Avoid intoxicants and alcohol (5:90)
67. Do not gamble (5:90)
68. Do not insult others’ deities (6:108)
69. Don’t reduce weight or measure to cheat people (6:152)
70. Eat and Drink, But Be Not Excessive (7:31)
71. Wear good cloths during prayer times (7:31)
72. protect and help those who seek protection (9:6)
73. Keep Purity (9:108)
74. Never give up hope of Allah’s Mercy (12:87)
75. Allah will forgive those who have done wrong out of ignorance (16:119)
76. Invitation to God should be with wisdom and good instruction (16:125)
77. No one will bear others’ sins (17:15)
78. Do not kill your children for fear of poverty (17:31)
79. Do not pursue that of which you have no knowledge (17:36)
80. Keep aloof from what is vain (23:3)
81. Do not enter others’ houses without seeking permission (24:27)
82. Allah will provide security for those who believe only in Allah (24:55)
83. Walk on earth in humility (25:63)
84. Do not neglect your portion of this world (28:77)
85. Invoke not any other god along with Allah (28:88)
86. Do not engage in homosexuality (29:29)
87. Enjoin right, forbid wrong (31:17)
88. Do not walk in insolence through the earth (31:18)
89. Women should not display their finery (33:33)
90. Allah forgives all sins (39:53)
91. Do not despair of the mercy of Allah (39:53)
92. Repel evil by good (41:34)
93. Decide on affairs by consultation (42:38)
94. Most noble of you is the most righteous (49:13)
95. No Monasticism in religion (57:27)
96. Those who have knowledge will be given a higher degree by Allah (58:11)
97. Treat non-Muslims in a kind and fair manner (60:8)
98. Save yourself from covetousness (64:16)
99. Seek forgiveness of Allah. He is Forgiving and Merciful (73:20)
100. Do not repel one who asks (93:10)
You usually say that Quran in its current understanding/interpretation is wrong and useless barbaric scripture. However, what about the scientific facts that it talks about which were not known at the time it was created, such as formation of an embryo an other examples?
What about just these 100 points from the Book (I put them at the of this message) which teach the reader excellence of character and growth of an individual? Just check the fact that Quran clearly states that there should be no interest systems. Now look at the current world and how as in your own words this interest based capitalistic system is turning indirectly into slaves. If people just listened to this one advice we wouldnt see the capitalistic slavery we see today.
You usually critique Quran but it does directly speak the same underlying message you are preaching, check this out:
Surah 91:7-10 And the soul and He who proportioned it.
And inspired it with its wickedness and its righteousness.
Successful is he who purifies it.
Failing is he who corrupts it.
Here it says black on white that God proportioned the soul and inspires "wickedness/evil-thoughts/errors/instinct" and "rightenousness/character-development-intelligence" and the succesful one is he who chooses to listen and obey the second and the failing one is the one listens obeys the first one. Where I see the biggest difference in your message and the official Quran-Interpretations is the idea of a Final destinations after death : Paradise and Hell
.
Paradise is like best of the best for eternity and Hell is like worst of the worst for eternity. However if God is 100% just then it boils down to one reaps what he sew in his earthly life. It is 100% justice. So in the end it is the person himself responsible where he ends up
, God doesnt make the choices for the person
.
You usually answer with something like this : "Why would God have any reason to punish people in hell, God is above such things". However, Immanuel, God is the Being who is in control over reality you reside in. Cant God do whatever God sees fit as something to do? Isnt the fact that God has total control of reality is one of the aspects that exactly makes him God and us humans, who couldnt do anything if God just decided at this very moment to stop our own very hearts?
You as a Being who is under control of Gods reality, you are deciding what is pointless to do and what is not, such as , as you said that putting people to hell would be pointless for God. But this just means you are assuming who God is as a Being and you expect God to think the way you´d think and proceed.
Another point that your message differs is that you tend to see God as a collective of multiple beings, however what difference does it make in the total scheme of things? How can you be so sure that it is a collective of beings with no hierarchy in their system? Ultimate God with a hierachy of angels, it makes sense and it is logical it is so. Lets just ask to ourselves ultimately if a angel would seem to us God-like what is the difference between an angel and the Ultimate God/Ruler? Again it is because the angels are under control of God. Would God be God if it was the opposite?
Why You think earth is a mess? Because people still want to do things their own way ignoring the wisdom God is providing, if people would just stop their own ways and listened and obeyed God life on earth would be much better.
And there is no meaning in rebelling the very fact that it is God/Ultimate-Being who gave us life, because there was a time we did not exist hence we have a birth day. It is just fact that God has total control of reality, we cannot even make one of our gray hairs turn dark again or make ourselves shorter by an inch. If you thought really carefully enough you would see how in a dependent situation we are in. The very own bodies we carry we have no ultimate control over.
Here for example same thing told about in the book of Matthew and the official-interpretation of Quran, but You would say it is just a coincidence, yes?
Matthew 19:28: Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Quran 83:22-36: Indeed, the righteous will be amid bliss.
On thrones, looking on.
But on that Day, those who believed will laugh at the unbelievers.
On luxurious furnishings, looking on.
Have the unbelievers been repaid for what they used to do?
1. Do not be rude in speech (3:159)
2. Restrain Anger (3:134)
3. Be good to others (4:36)
4. Do not be arrogant (7:13)
5. Forgive others for their mistakes (7:199)
6. Speak to people mildly (20:44)
7. Lower your voice (31:19)
8. Do not ridicule others (49:11)
9. Be dutiful to parents(17:23)
10. Do not say a word of disrespect to parents (17:23)
11. Do not enter parents’ private room without asking permission (24:58)
12. Write down the debt (2:282)
13. Do not follow anyone blindly (2:170)
14. Grant more time to repay if the debtor is in hard time (2:280)
15. Don’t consume interest (2:275)
16. Do not engage in bribery (2:188)
17. Do not break the promise (2:177)
18. Keep the trust (2:283)
19. Do not mix the truth with falsehood (2:42)
20. Judge with justice between people (4:58)
21. Stand out firmly for justice (4:135)
22. Wealth of the dead should be distributed among his family members (4:7)
23. Women also have the right for inheritance (4:7)
24. Do not devour the property of orphans (4:10)
25. Protect orphans (2:220)
26. Do not consume one another’s wealth unjustly (4:29)
27. Try for settlement between people (49:9)
28. Avoid suspicion (49:12)
29. Do not spy and backbite (2:283)
30. Do not spy or backbite (49:12)
31. Spend wealth in charity (57:7)
32. Encourage feeding poor (107:3)
33. Help those in need
by finding them (2:273)
34. Do not spend money extravagantly (17:29)
35. Do not invalidate charity with reminders (2:264)
36. Honor guests (51:26)
37. Order righteousness to people only after practicing it yourself(2:44)
38. Do not commit abuse on the earth (2:60)
39. Do not prevent people from mosques (2:114)
40. Fight only with those who fight you (2:190)
41. Keep the etiquettes of war (2:191)
42. Do not turn back in battle (8:15)
43. No compulsion in religion (2:256)
44. Believe in all prophets (2:285)
45. Do not have sexual intercourse during menstrual period (2:222)
46. Breast feed your children for two complete years (2:233)
47. Do not even approach unlawful sexual intercourse (17:32)
48. Choose rulers by their merit (2:247)
49. Do not burden a person beyond his scope (2:286)
50. Do not become divided (3:103)
51. Think deeply about the wonders and creation of this universe (3:191)
52. Men and Women have equal rewards for their deeds (3:195)
53. Do not marry those in your blood relation (4:23)
54. Family should be led by men (4:34)
55. Do not be miserly (4:37)
56.Do not keep envy (4:54)
57. Do not kill each other (4:92)
58. Do not be an advocate for deceit (4:105)
59. Do not cooperate in sin and aggression (5:2)
60. Cooperate in righteousness (5:2)
61. ’Having majority’ is not a criterion of truth (6:116)
62. Be just (5:8)
63. Punish for crimes in an exemplary way (5:38)
64. Strive against sinful and unlawful acts (5:63)
65. Dead animals, blood, the flesh of swine are prohibited (5:3)
66. Avoid intoxicants and alcohol (5:90)
67. Do not gamble (5:90)
68. Do not insult others’ deities (6:108)
69. Don’t reduce weight or measure to cheat people (6:152)
70. Eat and Drink, But Be Not Excessive (7:31)
71. Wear good cloths during prayer times (7:31)
72. protect and help those who seek protection (9:6)
73. Keep Purity (9:108)
74. Never give up hope of Allah’s Mercy (12:87)
75. Allah will forgive those who have done wrong out of ignorance (16:119)
76. Invitation to God should be with wisdom and good instruction (16:125)
77. No one will bear others’ sins (17:15)
78. Do not kill your children for fear of poverty (17:31)
79. Do not pursue that of which you have no knowledge (17:36)
80. Keep aloof from what is vain (23:3)
81. Do not enter others’ houses without seeking permission (24:27)
82. Allah will provide security for those who believe only in Allah (24:55)
83. Walk on earth in humility (25:63)
84. Do not neglect your portion of this world (28:77)
85. Invoke not any other god along with Allah (28:88)
86. Do not engage in homosexuality (29:29)
87. Enjoin right, forbid wrong (31:17)
88. Do not walk in insolence through the earth (31:18)
89. Women should not display their finery (33:33)
90. Allah forgives all sins (39:53)
91. Do not despair of the mercy of Allah (39:53)
92. Repel evil by good (41:34)
93. Decide on affairs by consultation (42:38)
94. Most noble of you is the most righteous (49:13)
95. No Monasticism in religion (57:27)
96. Those who have knowledge will be given a higher degree by Allah (58:11)
97. Treat non-Muslims in a kind and fair manner (60:8)
98. Save yourself from covetousness (64:16)
99. Seek forgiveness of Allah. He is Forgiving and Merciful (73:20)
100. Do not repel one who asks (93:10)